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A11y Podcast


Mar 27, 2021

Dax Castro
Welcome to another episode of Chax Chat. Join Chad Chelius and me, Dax Castro, where each week we wax poetic about document accessibility topics, tips, and the struggle of remediation and compliance. So sit back, grab your favorite mug of whatever. And let’s get started.

Chad Chelius
Welcome, everybody. Today’s episode is sponsored by AbelDocs, makers of access PDF for word, access PDF, quick fix, and document remediation services.

Dax Castro
Alright guys, welcome to Episode Two. Right. So here we are, again, Chad, Another week, another set of topics, another great set of information to talk about. So I think, how’d you think last week when I thought it went pretty well?

Chad Chelius
Yeah, I do, too. Um, you know, I think everybody enjoyed it, we’re getting a lot of good feedback on it. And, you know, I really, you know, I really enjoyed doing this. And I hope everybody enjoys it as well. I’m looking forward to many more to come.

Dax Castro
Awesome. Awesome. So I want to ask, you know, I put up a poll on our Facebook group PDF accessibility. For those of you who don’t know, we have a Facebook group called PDF accessibility with about 1000 members. And I put up a poll that asked how they were testing for accessibility, you know, kind of, are they using a screen reader? Are they not? You know, and I was surprised, and how many people were only using Apple Voiceover as a way to test their documents?

Chad Chelius
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, you know, we’re in a challenging industry with PDF remediation. One of one of the reasons is because most of the software available, most of the third party software available is Windows based, right? And you and I know myself personally, you are a Windows user, right? Yeah. I’m not gonna hold that against you. No, I’m just kidding. But I’m a Mac user. Right. But because I do PDF remediation, I need to run Parallels on my Mac, right? I’m running Windows so that I can, you know, so I can run pack three, so so I can use third party utilities, so that I can use NVDA though,

Dax Castro
I heard you announced something at the last Accessibility Summit about PAC 3. Why don’t you tell us what that is?

Chad Chelius
I a m I am waiting with bated breath. You, your your friend and mine. We have we have a mutual acquaintance who is basically responsible for releasing pack three on the Mac side. So he did give me permission to announce that and I tell you what, I cannot wait because I’m literally running Windows only to run Pac three, half the time. It is just so annoying, you know, but um, but But yeah, I mean, it’s exciting news, and I can’t wait for the day that we can announce it and send everybody over there to download a copy on their own.

Dax Castro
Well, you know, I you know, one of the questions I asked was, how do you make documents compliant? Yeah, and the questions, you know, the the overwhelming response, I put about four different responses in there. I remediate by hand using Acrobat checker, I use common Look, I remediate by hand using pack three. And I use the accessibility assistant for Word and PowerPoint. Actually, that was actually added by one of our members. And I use InDesign Acrobat checker, and pack three was also added by another one of our members. 47 of the let’s see, there are 40, 50, 60, 70, 80…. That’s right, about 100 people that answered the question. And so 47% of them said I remediate by hand and use only the Acrobat checker.

Chad Chelius
Yeah.

Dax Castro
It’s so interesting to me, because, you know, while we think you would think logic would say that Acrobat wants to be compliant, and Acrobat would make a checker that would validate compliance. The truth You and I both know is that any accessibility is a series of manual and automated checks, and that Acrobat can technically pass even some automated things that are not technically possible that are not that don’t meet WCAG. And so you really, it’s not even just a, “you can use an automated checker,” you have to know when the automated checker is wrong, when it looks at that item and says, Oh, yeah, your heading structure is fine, even though there’s nothing there or that your headings should be an H3 and it’s an H4, or, you know, whatever the case may be, or your table has missing cells or merge cells and it but no scope, right you know, so, so things like that. You really have to have a base knowledge. You know, 16% said they use CommonLook, I personally use CommonLook, I’m not because I want to shortcut because I don’t know, but I have been doing this so long. I’m so tired of manually doing it one at a time. There’s some great savings, time saving tools and CommonLook. But with great power comes great responsibility. Because there’s also really easy ways you press the wrong button. And all of a sudden, you have completely jacked up your tag stream, because you double nested a set of tags and, and it does it document wide. So you have to be careful. And then 14% said, I remediate by hand using pack three, which is great. And that’s fine. I use pack three, I mean, my workflow is I can you tell me what yours is. But I walk the tag Street and fix all the stuff I know is wrong first, then I run the Acrobat checker and fix any of those issues. Then I run pack three, fix all of those issues. And then actually, I go back, and I run Acrobat checker again. And I’ll tell you why I do that, because most clients will open Acrobat checker and just run that. And if for some reason, pack three is made some I had to make some changes to suffice pack three, but it throws an error inside the Acrobat checker. I don’t have time to explain it to the client, why I’m right, and Acrobats wrong. I just go in and double check and make sure I fixed it. And so what’s your workflow?

Chad Chelius
No, I and I’ve had that exact same experience where, you know, I got it to completely pass Pac3, and just happened to run the Acrobat checker again and had a couple of errors. And I’m like, wait a minute, like, How can that be? But But I mean, my workflow is very similar to yours. Um, you know, I guess what I would add to you is I, whenever possible, I’ll go in and modify the source document, if I’m provided with it.

Dax Castro
Oh Absolutely. Totally.

Chad Chelius
You know, It’s it’s a little bit of a sticky wicket, though, because when I go into the source document, to add the hooks, if you will, right Word whether it’s PowerPoint, whether it’s InDesign, there is a danger that I’m going to mess something up, right, that I’m going to cause reflow that I’m going to do something. This is especially true in InDesign, right, because, right, InDesign, I’m imparting consistency to the document by adding styles, right, and if the designer did not use styles, maybe one time the heading was 12 point and another time, it was 14 point, you know, and now all of a sudden, I got reflow. So whenever I do that, I will output a PDF, send it to the client for visual approval before I continue remediation, because if there’s an issue, I want to address it right away before I spend, you know, we talked about that. Yeah, you’re 20% on 15%. Right. But you know, roughly the same. So yeah, so I’ll then output the PDF, run the Acrobat checker, the Acrobat checker just kind of lets me know of the dumb things I forgot, you know, to me that they Oh, you forgot the title? Of course you did. You know, I mean, like, things like that.

Dax Castro
you know, that’s funny. You bring up the title, right? Yeah. So the title so many times you run the Acrobat checker, it gives you the error that there’s no title, and I’ll get right to it. The you’re like, No, no, there is the title, just right click and hit fix, and it’ll find it. I’m like, Why doesn’t it? Why does an acrobat actually recognize the dang title? Is there? You took the time to set it.

Chad Chelius
I know. It was back to our laundry list, right?

Dax Castro
Yeah. Well, you know, and I will tell you, the other thing I forgot to add is that I always check with with NVDA and JAWS. So but what I do is, I start walking through header, the header, the header, or I’ll look through my bookmarks and kind of look at make sure my structure looks sounds right looks right. And then I’ll go pick a couple of tables or maybe an infographic that I’ve done some special treatment to, and test those and ensure that the way it’s being read is the way I want it to be read. Math, math equations are terrible. Most linear math equations do not get voiced correctly. So you end up having to make them an image and apply all text, you know, all different situations. But you know that that testing with a screen reader is so important, because, again, no one’s going to sue you, because you didn’t pass 1.3 point one info and relationships, they’re going to sue you because they couldn’t get to the information in a paragraph that you just blanketly put some generic alt text on that wasn’t meaningful to what was going on, or because they were looking for the heading. That’s the in the document that wasn’t there. And it’s, you know, 10,000 pages or, you know, 500 pages of paragraph tags with no structure. That’s what right, see you for, right.

Chad Chelius
Yep. So, no, you’re absolutely right. Um, you know, and, you know, I mean, as part of the remediation process, you and I talked about this, I think yesterday, where, you know, every PDF I create, I have to walk the tags tree, I pretty much have to touch every tag in the document is just part of the process. Because that’s how you can that’s how you verify it’s how you find issues, you know, and things like that. So, um, yeah, that’s just part of my process. And then one of my processes is, and I mentioned that this in the previous episode, I will run it through PDFgoHTML, right render it as a web page. But I then click on the structure button, right, where I could, I could see the order, I could see how things are tagged. And it’s just kind of a quick way for me to go through the document and just kind of verify that the things look the way they should,

Dax Castro
Right. And then I actually in Callas, I have set it so that it automatically goes to the structure structure view. So that I don’t have to click on the little tabs because I think there’s like eight or so tabs, I actually didn’t even know they were there until I was looking at it earlier, like, oh, wow, there’s a lot more here than just structure. You know, disabling CSS and you know, other stuff. So in contrast mode is another good one that’s inside Callas, that allows it changes the background color to a darker or lighter, you know, adds contrast, which I thought was a great, a great little tool, so

Chad Chelius
And there’s a dyslexia mode as well, they turn on,

Dax Castro
You know, I’m not pretty, I’m not happy. So having dyslexia myself,

Chad Chelius
Oh okay.

Dax Castro
Most people don’t understand what really happens. And it’s such a hard thing to combat, right. So I’m having a “p” and a “q”, that look exactly the same, the only difference is one has a little tilt, and one has a you know, a little stick and one might not right. But having a be different, as long as they’re not exactly the same. I can pick out the small nuances, I’m looking for those differences, my brain automatically will recognize they’re different. But for me, and of course, my disability, my version of what dyslexia is, for me is different than somebody else’s, but I don’t need fat bottomed font, I just need them to be different. I need them to be you know a, “b” and a “d” to be different. I need my I and Ls to be different I need, you know, I need that. And, and for me, the other part is, is my numbers. It’s funny, I will give you that information. So when I look at a number, I’ll read, I’ll see it visually, it’s five, oh, I’ll say 50. But I might type oh five, because my brain flips that around when for my fingers. So it’s you know, everybody’s different. I guess the bottom line to that is dyslexia mode, while I give some credit to what they’re trying to do, it’s such a hard thing to really to, really, to combat. And sure, I don’t I know that there’s not just one answer. So it is a hard thing.

Chad Chelius
Well, and and I think what you just described, I mean, I think what you just described is is really valuable information. I mean, I just learned something, because I really don’t fully understand what a dyslexic person experiences, you know, what their challenges are, what they face, you know, and, and, and I mean, that is all fantastic information. You know, it’s it’s good information for us to know, you know, as well,

Dax Castro
It’s just being aware, I think, awareness. You know, my mantra, my one my mantra for accessibility is, is Awareness, Knowledge, Awareness, Education and Implementation, right? First, you become aware that it’s a thing, then you become educated on what it is, and how I can fix it. And then the last part is implementation actually doing something about it. And I think a lot of corporations are stuck in that awareness. They aren’t even aware they have, you know, this is a thing, right? We have disability and include we have diversity and inclusion is everywhere on the web right now. Everybody’s talking about how diverse and how inclusive they are. But what they don’t often you try to talk to them, and you say, Oh, great. So what is your accessibility policy? Oh, well, we make sure that all our doors and you know that we have accessible desks, and we and like, okay, but that’s only part of it. Right? They don’t they don’t understand digital accessibility as part of that inclusive experience. Because it’s not just about access to information. It’s about feeling included in the culture. Right?

Chad Chelius
Yeah.

Dax Castro
If your corporation is doing training, and you can’t, and as a person who might have a reading disability, I can’t read what’s on there, and I use maybe windows navigator or Apple voiceover or, you know, NVDA to read the content, I can’t get to it. Now being excluded. I see. I’m feeling ostracized from from from the company, you know, so it’s, I think it is important.

Chad Chelius
One of the best experiences that I had Dax a few years ago, I taught PDF accessibility to a company in Seattle called Lighthouse for the Blind. Oh, yeah, I know. And, you know, when you walk into their facility, you know, I mean, everything is built. So the first thing that that kind of blew my mind, you know, when you and this is me being very naive, right, right. So I’m thinking okay, they only employ blind people and I’m like, Okay. Like, what are they making? You know, and I had this had a kind of connotation in my head like, Okay, this is what they’re doing. They’re making aerospace parts. Wow. They’re people are running CNC machines milling metal for airplanes. Wow. So they’re they’re seeing machine. They’re CNC machines are running jaws. Why and they are plugging the values in for the part that they’re making, loading the CNC machine closing the door and running the machine. Well, you know, but what I was there for I was teaching there blind people how to make PDFs accessible. Wow, that’s so cool. So so like when I teach classes and people say, Oh, this is hard. Wait, wait a second. Wait a second. And what was really eye opening was? I couldn’t really teach them to do much in Acrobat. Right? And that’s Acrobat. Acrobat is not accessible. Right. I couldn’t teach them how to make a PDF out of InDesign because InDesign is not accessible, right? But word is, yep. What word has what are called? Are they Quick Access keys? Yes, I do I have that terminology. Yes. So if you hold down your Alt key, you could press the letter F, which will open a menu, and then another letter that will access the command in that menu…

Dax Castro
Right? So you never accidentally press that or held down all yours. the letter comes up inside a little square. And those are all those shortcut keys.

Chad Chelius
So they taught me how to kind of explain to them and so I would say, okay, access key F > W. Don’t quote me on that. But it was something like that. And then they were able to access the command that I was telling them to go to. And it was a great experience. But but it was very eye opening to to simply, you know what it’s like for a non sighted user to use a computer.

Dax Castro
Yeah, that’s awesome. You know, there was a question the other day on the message board about heading levels, right on our Facebook group. And one person said, you know, hey, my document skips heading levels, but it’s somebody else’s source document. I really can’t edit it, what do I do? Right. And so there was a discussion back and forth about whether or not you can skip heading levels. And so the first thing I asked was, well, to what standard? Are you remediating to, right? Because the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the CAG 2.0, or 2.1 says that that although you it a well structured document has semantic heading levels heading 1,2,3,4,5,6. It’s okay. And it it’s okay and not a failure, that it skips a heading level. But PDF/UA, clearly, I had to look it up, it was 4.2 point two in the the, if you don’t have a copy of this document, I will tell anybody listening right now, this is this is the 14289-1. It is the Tagged PDF Best Practices Guide, ISO 14289-1. If you don’t have this, you need a copy of it. I mean, you really should be looking at this, it’s going to give you a lot of the technical answers that you’re probably struggling to try to figure out. Now it is a hard read. There’s a lot of stuff going on. So so it took me a while to get to a point where I could actually it made a lot of sense. But in 4.2.2 it says “PDF/UA-1 one requires heading levels not to be skipped (example H1 H2 H4.) However, otherwise well structured documents exist in which heading levels are skipped. And their modification of content is not an option. Which is exactly what this person’s case was right? It’s a well formed document but it just skips a level in such so PDF/UA continues to say “…in such cases although the PDF/UA flag cannot be used, it is recommended that the file to conform that the file conform with PDF/UA in all other respects. In other words, you’re not going to get a pass we’re not going to tell you it’s a passing document just realize that that you should you should still try to pass all the other requirements. Just realize you’re not going to get past this one and I thought that was interesting right that they acknowledge they acknowledges the thing but that we’re not going to let you get your we’re not gonna let you get away with it right we’re not going to it’s going to be required. Now I do I will say that in PDF/UA-2, which is still under development, they are removing this this this mandatory feature that they are they did see I don’t know if common look had posted something about it or some I saw some other website that had said hey look, just realize PDF/UA-1 says this is not going to be required anymore.

Chad Chelius
But, you know, I remember seeing that as well. I can’t remember either where, where I saw that, but, but but it’s interesting, you know, and it’s also an example of how our, our standards evolve. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, a great example, right? I mean, when I first started doing this, every table had to have a table summary. Right? Right. Well, over time, you know, it was finally determined like, Hey, listen, this, this is really not necessary. And so that was no longer required. By most…

Dax Castro
By normal people who are sane who have a brain. We won’t mention any cough cough HHS requirements that still require table summaries, or the fact that jaws the most popular screen reader on the market ignores table summaries that a PDF, it does not read them. Only NVDA reads table summaries in a PDF now in HTML, jaws and NVDA will both read a table summary. But in a PDF, only only NVDA will read it. So interest.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, it is very interesting. It is interesting.

Dax Castro
Yeah, I, so you know, who’s on Twitter, it’s time for our little segment.

Chad Chelius
Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Dax Castro
We starting this little segment who’s on Twitter, we did that we started this last episode, we’re gonna keep going on with it. Our next who’s on Twitter is Adrian rosselli. And that’s at our, it’s his [twitter] is https://twitter.com/aardrian. And he wrote, I got tons of interest feed interesting feedback from why folks do not use jaws for testing it as much as I might expect. And I wrote back and said, I completely agree. While it’s most interesting that only 13% of eight of native assistive technology users use Apple VoiceOver, and that almost none of the people who are testing with multiple screen readers, they’re not aware of the differences of how the same text might be voiced. differently, right? Basically, the idea is that, you know, if you’re just using Apple VoiceOver, you’re just using using NVDA. You’re not accounting for the differences in the different ways that screen readers are interpreting text, right? Um, anyway, his he, you know, his comment was that 37 37% use NVDA and 35%. Use Apple VoiceOver. And of course, the reality is that only 13% of actual screen read native screen reader users are using Apple VoiceOver. Yeah. You know, that the majority of people are testing. And I think that goes back to why they test it, because it’s what they have. Yeah, yeah, they’re if they’re on a Mac, doing remediation, then they’ve got voiceover. So…

Dax Castro
Well, and you had told me, DAX, that Apple VoiceOver is like, great for like, you know, certain things, but does not read a PDF very well. Is that true? So it is true, right? So Apple VoiceOver is integrated into every Mac device, you have in your iPhone, your iPhone, your iPad, your Mac computer, your Mac workbook, everything. And it does a great job of interface control, and websites and social media and all of that, but it really has not, you know, this kind of goes back to the old days of flash and Adobe and, and an apple, that for some reason, there’s this kind of adversarial relationship that just doesn’t, they don’t play nice together.

Chad Chelius
And I think we need to remember, sorry, not to interrupt you. But um, I think we need to remember that Adobe, no longer owns the PDF specification, you know, Adobe, Adobe made the PDF specification open source, you know, many years ago. Right. But But everybody still, you know, relates PDF to Adobe. Right? They’re like, you know, you know, I wish Adobe would fix this, you know, and it’s not really Adobe anymore. I mean, it’s it’s a, it’s a diverse group of people who are kind of contributing to the format overall, including, you know, Leonard Rosenthal, who has been involved in PDF forever.

Dax Castro
Well, they got a new thing that PDF reflow. Right. And that’s all Yeah, I think coming out, we’re actually excited about that PDF reflow…

[“Liquid Mode” is the real name. We call it the wrong thing throughout this segment]

I think it’s going to help people. So it’s got a so PDF reflow. For those who don’t know, the idea is that you’re going to take all of the containers that you normally see in your tags tree, and it’s going to use those as objects to reflow your content, think of like a dynamic HTML page that resizes into a mobile format. It’s going to do that with using an AI methodology, right. So I think there will be some controls built in. So as a publisher, I can control some of that flow. But the idea is that they want to try to give us an alternate way to present information in a mobile format that doesn’t require all this extra remediation, which doesn’t mean we’re going to be out of a job. It just means that on a mobile device, I’ll be able to have a flow that fits into my screen. So one of the things we need to remember is that for people who have visual disability, the the PDF on their phone is no different than the PDF on their computer. And while you and I may never ever look at 100 page document on our phone through as a PDF, a person with a visual disability, they’re gonna there’s no difference for them, there’s that that experience is very close to the same. Now, of course, you have keyboard commands that are much easily accessible, you know, if you’re, you know, using it at your computer versus a phone, but this, this user experience is very similar. But PDF reflow [Liquid Mode] is going to make the visual experience much easier to digest, which I think helps people with cognitive disability, and people who have some vision, but but might just have a limited vision and need larger text. So I’m excited to see how it comes out. I really am.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, me too. And I mean, listen, here’s the harsh reality. I mean, as a sighted user, viewing a PDF on my phone sucks. Yeah, like “End of story”, period. It’s a horrible experience. The reflow mode is like a remote in your web browser. I love it a, you know, the the challenge we’re facing right now. And I think it’s just because this is their first iteration of the of the feature, right? Currently, the reflow mode ignores any tags in your document, right? Adobe is using, I believe, using artificial intelligence to then say technology, Adobe Sensei, yeah, is using some type of AI to kind of, and I’m assuming it’s going by font size, or something like that, to kind of establish the headings. Hopefully, they’re using better technology than auto tag in Acrobat. Because, you know, auto tag, you know, another episode yet another another episode. But But yeah, I mean, I’m actually excited about reflow. I’ve used it, I mean, when I use that, I’m usually like, fixing my lawn mower in my backyard, and I’m referencing the manual on my phone, you know, and let’s be real, most of those manuals are like scanned PDFs that have nothing. But every now and then I get one that reflow mode works. And I’m like, wow, I can scroll through. I can, you know, it’s really, really nice. So, yeah,

Dax Castro
Awesome. Well, you know, um, you know, another topic that came up the other day was, um, somebody asked about triple A compliance, they’re like, we need to make a document, triple A compliant. And I and then like, and then my first comment was, you realize that that triple A, they wanted to know what the requirements, you know, how to do that, how to go about that. And, and they started talking about color contrast, well, AAA requirements are special. And in the mcag standard, it actually says that you cannot meet all of the AAA requirements in conjunction with each other, that they’re that some are in conflict, and you really have to know which AAA requirements your client is requesting. So I thought that was interesting thing that a lot of people aren’t aware of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz, good. Go ahead.

Chad Chelius
Well, no, I mean, it’s a really good point. And for beginning, people getting into creating accessible PDF files, it’s one of the most confusing aspects is, is the standards, right, you know, what I mean? Like, you know, you know, and and to explain to them that, hey, you know, the Acrobat checker is really not checking to any standard, you know, and they’re like, well, I don’t understand, that’s the, that’s what my company is using to, to establish that this document is accessible, you know? And so it is it me it’s even to this day, it’s, it can be challenging to all of us, I think, right? But But you’re right, I mean, you know, AAA is just kind of a component of the WCAG requirement, right.

Dax Castro
And it has a lot to do with large text and color, like almost no color. And I mean, it’s really for the most strict requirements about how hyperlinks can be represented, how links can be represented, what size texts can be, you know, all of that and, and again, different parameters for different for different subjects can be in conflict with each other. So you have to understand and it says, right, in the WCAG guideline, that you understand that you cannot meet all of these requirements, that they’re, that some are exclusive to each other and I thought that was a an interesting,

Chad Chelius
It’s very interesting.

Dax Castro
Yeah. Um, you know, one of the other things that somebody brought up was the language languages in a in a in a PDF, right. And so, you know, I think a lot of people don’t understand that, that JAWS and NVDA are not universal translators, that that, you know, JAWS will read about 18 or 40 different languages somewhere, maybe it’s 18. It’s not a lot, right. NVDA will read 72 languages, but you have to have those language packs installed, installed. Yeah. So as a tester, if I’ve got a document that’s got three translations, and this happens a lot in state documents, where you have to have a phrase in English, a phrase in Spanish phrase, and Chinese and a phrase, and you pick your language, Korean or Russian, depending upon what area you’re in, right? And as remediate is, like, Oh, I tested this NVDA. And it’s still not reading it the way the Chinese characters or the Russian characters should be read. And I’m like, yeah, of course, it won’t. You don’t have that language pack installed. But you need to make sure you tag it correctly. And there’s a there you know, there is that way to go in, find the drop down in that paragraph property, and check the language. But what do you do when they’re your language? Isn’t in that list? Do you know? Do you know?

Chad Chelius
I do not? I have no idea.

Dax Castro
So there is an ISO standard, right? So have you look up the ISO standard? It is, um, there it is. ISO 639-2, if you Google that, ISO 639-2, it is the list of language codes by the ISO standard, right? And what this is, is a two or three letter code that correlates to a specific language or dialect for a, just a, just a ton of different languages.

Chad Chelius
Now, if Now, can you choose which one you use the or three, it doesn’t matter?

Dax Castro
No, it does matter. In certain cases, I tend to use the ones without the parentheses in them, just because I feel safer, like it’s going to read it better. But the ISO 639 -2 is the current version of the language code. And you can use those letters. And they will correspond if that person has that language pack installed. So if you’ve got some somebody had Creole, right, French Creole, from Haiti, and they wanted to tag a paragraph in Creole, and I said, Okay, well, you have to use the French Creole language. And in fact there is, if you scroll down to Creole, there you go. So Haitian Creole is h 80. So depending upon which you have to be very careful about what language you pick, right? In this list to make sure you have the right dialect, the right dialogue. So Hawaiian, right? I mean, Hebrew, those are things that aren’t in the drop down list for Acrobat. But you know, I can see how they could come up in in certain documents.

Chad Chelius
Well, what can also be confusing about dealing with other language text is that if you open up the tag for that text, a lot of times all you see is rectangles, right? And once again, to your point of needing to have the language installed, you would need to have a font installed that supports that language. Exactly. And and the reason they’re showing up as rectangles is because you don’t have you don’t have a Hebrew font or, you know, whatever it might be installed. So that definitely gets tricky.

Dax Castro
No I agree. Well, Chad, we’re at the end, dude, it is a another podcast, we have a time just flies, man

Chad Chelius
It really does.

Dax Castro
I really love talking with you. And you know, again, I’d like for those of you who are listening if you’re not part of our Facebook group, PDF Accessibility. I’ve got a YouTube channel PDF Accessibility as well. I don’t post on there a lot, but I do post there’s some good stuff, some good walkthroughs. And then you and I were speaking in in May, right, May 17 at Creative Pro Week Conference. Yep. Creative Pro. And you’re doing what are your sessions? yet my sessions, I’m doing one on accessibility in Acrobat. So I think you know, you’re doing a couple of sessions on InDesign. And then I’m going to follow up with, you know, what we need to do in Acrobat after that to kind of get everything compliant. I’m doing a session on outputting from InDesign to other formats. I’m doing a session on scripts, and doing another one that I can’t think of off the top of my head, but that’s okay. Doing one in PowerPoint, I will tell you, for those of you who have to remediate empower PowerPoint files, I’m going to give you, Chad knows a secret already.

Chad Chelius
Oh, yeah.

Dax Castro
I’m gonna give you a secret PowerPoint tip, I swear you do not know is inside PowerPoint that deals with accessibility. It’s going to be great.

Chad Chelius
So you don’t have to think backwards.

Dax Castro
Yes, that’s true. That’s a hint. That’s a good hint. And then I’m gonna have a great checklist on how to how to check for accessibility that you’ve done. All your eyes crossed all your T’s in PowerPoint. So that’s going to be great. And then I’m also speaking at SMPS Build Business 2021. For those of you in the architectural engineering construction world, I’m going to talk about how accessibility affects your deliverable from a timeline and budget perspective, and how also you can increase your win rate by including accessibility as a feature. Right, so and then Chad, the other places you are, you’re in LinkedIn, right? You’ve got some LinkedIn, corses.

Chad Chelius
Yeah, LinkedIn learning, formerly lynda.com, a lot, a lot of old timers, not old timers, I’m sorry, I didn’t need to say that. But But a lot of people who’ve been in the design for a long time,

Dax Castro
I’m gonna tell David Blatner on you.

Chad Chelius
But a lot of people who have been in the design business for a long time are really familiar with lynda.com. A few years ago, lynda.com, got purchased by LinkedIn. And they kind of transformed the lynda.com library into LinkedIn learning. So yeah, yeah, we’ll, I’ve several courses on PDF Accessibility, as well as other topics in that library, so please check those out.

Dax Castro
Awesome. And then I just want to thank IWA p for being the International Association of accessibility professionals for being a pillar in the world of accessibility. If you’re not a member of IE WAP, and you are in the accessibility world, you really should consider it. You know, as we talked about in last episode, if you didn’t catch our last episode, we talked about the Accessible Document Specialist certification, go listen to that podcast. But really, it is a great litmus test to either prove what you already know, and give yourself some validity, or to as a great learning tool to kind of get yourself a little farther along. So it has been my pleasure. I am Dax Castro and Adobe-certified PDF accessibility trainer. And this is Chad, Chelius who is also an accessible document specialists and amazing presenter on LinkedIn. And we are so glad that you joined us on this journey. And please leave a comment below. And let us know what you think of our podcasts. We want to keep doing these. And if you’ve got ideas for us, just just jot them down, I promise you, we’ll consider them and we’ll see you guys next time and thanks for joining us as we help you along on your accessible journey.

Chad Chelius
Take care guys.